Fluid Treatment and Electrical Work

[Alan H]

Alan H I think you are defining "Make before Break" type of toggle switch versus "Break before Make" (that's why if your clever with switch you can make both high and low beams on same time)

Yes, that's right Vintageman, but I was trying to be as non technical as possible!

Sure that makes sense but does not explain why headlight blows. May explain why tail light would blow out as you switch from high to low beam if broke before made, but not the complaint.

If the switch is wrong or bad contacts, the actual wiring acts as a capacitor for a split second and so the voltage applied to the other filament of the bulb is very high and will pop it. I had the same problem with my M12 back in the late 60s, and it took some time (as a first year apprentice electrician) to find a dry battery, rusty rectifier and a couple of poor connections. It was about then I learned to swear properly.

You'll notice that the ignition switch 'off' earths the points too - this means that if you lose the key, if you just disconnect the single black wire from the switch to the three way above it on the drawing, the bike will start and run. Stall it to stop. Yes, I found that out when I lost my only key about the same time. Oh, the joys of being a novice biker. More swearing involved.

I think I now why all little old on/off dirt bikes have blown head lights.

Yup!!! Revs and more revs.

I agree with jacb the rectifier is just a diode and does not need a ground just heat sinking.

For some reason, I was thinking there was a smoothing capacitor in the rectifier. That would need an earth to work, maybe my memory playing up (again) though. The fins are the heat sink, but the mount would definitely help keep it cool.

If it were me I would double up on the rectifier and run head light and tail light off battery. May not be as bright that way, but these things weren't much more than few candles. This way you pass inspection.

The reason I would double rectifier for if you pull extra current from DC side more current through rectifier too.

That would work but would need the lighting circuit rewiring without the ignition switch. You run the risk of overcharging the battery though. Easier to fix the original problem - maybe!!

Oh yes, it could just be wrong bulb sizes, missing or open connections, fuse, and make sure that battery has a chassis ground and engine too

Does anyone expect this sort of thing to be straightforward? That's why my GT550 is taking so long to do. One step forwards and 3/4 step back.

Of course we could all be wrong and it might be high pressure in the front tyre causing the headlight bulb to vibrate loose in the holder......................

[jabcb]

You have a range of choices for improvements.

The simplest improvement probably would be an AC voltage regulator.
Just hook it up to the lighting circuit somewhere before the headlight H/L switch.

An intermediate option would be to switch to a full wave rectifier + a DC voltage regulator.

The most complex would be to fully convert to DC wiring.

[Alan H]

Or sell it and get a 550.
It will cost more but you'll be happier. (It may take a long time and many $$ before you realise this.)

Trust me, I'm a policeman (cough).

[Vintageman]

AC voltage regulator

Series or shunt? Usually this is a shunt since the wave form here is a primitive single phase and will always cross zero volts. Series regulator would struggle here and could drop out (lights off) when input below set point.
More sophisticated charging circuits use multi-phase alternators so when rectified to DC and summed, will have ripple but, never goes to zero and stays above desired voltage (if required to function without Batt. or Bulk Capacitance, which typically they typically do.)
It would be hard to find a qualified 6VDC shunt regulator... maybe. Just a Transzorb can be selected as a shunt given it is rated for the wattage/voltage… time and testing required

Well the batt already is a good regulator, just wouldn’t trust that single rectifier can handle the added current. Also I have never tried… just bloody theory on my part, seams low risk if this is a design flaw to start.
Shouldn’t be! Should it?… Just can’t be!, can it?

split second and so the voltage applied to the other filament of the bulb is very high and will pop it.

Wire is usually more inductive… I suppose maybe a few tens or maybe even 100s Pico Farads of capacitance … but that wouldn’t be enough charge to hurt that Tungsten filament?… just guessing.
More importantly the lighting coil is a large inductor, If not Make before Break, that would result in a very high voltage spike, plasma arc, and that would burn switch contacts real quick. But, current or power to lamp would not increase. Ah just theory on my part again.

… still real odd design to me, I was not the engineer. Wonder if back in 1965 Silicon rectifiers were pricey items? Fun stuff

qparker4

Let us know what you find. We all still learning

[jabcb]

The Electrex RG06 is a 6v AC voltage regulator.
http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/RG06.html

Its likely that there is at least one aftermarket voltage regulator that's more readily available in the US.

[Alan H]

Wire is usually more inductive… I suppose maybe a few tens or maybe even 100s Pico Farads of capacitance … but that wouldn’t be enough charge to hurt that Tungsten filament?… just guessing.

Careful, are we talking single strand or normal multi strand wiring? Plus adjacent cabling in the same harness for inductive effect. There may be a couple on nanofarads difference!!!!!
Yes, I realise it's DC so less effect - I've been pi$$ing about with ACS800 inverters today so had to refresh my DC bumf to impress the site client, and I'm still coming off the 'high'. (Yeh, right.)

Adjust your calcs accordingly. You top, bulb pop!!!!

[Vintageman]

ja

The Electrex RG06 is a 6v AC voltage regulator.
http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/RG06.html
Its likely that there is at least one aftermarket voltage regulator that's more readily available in the US.

Yes that's a shunt one.

I have recently designed inverters But, never designed a primitive motorcycle charging system.
I am sure I have made assumptions again

One of my assumption is everything must be spot on. And, if nothing wrong found as we have all suggested and reviewing system is as diagram, clamping the AC peaks to head light per jabcb ala shunt regulator. Update, my Batt idea no good, without switch lights always on, and since I loose the negative half cycles of each coil and most likely battery will drain.

Oh dang, if the shunt regulator clamps too low or equal to batt. voltage on positive AC half it may limit the ability to forward bias the Silicon rectifier and charge battery fully…. That system only needs to clamp negative AC half it looks to me for insurance... get a unidirectional clamp... isn’t (re)engineering fun... ship it.

Update: to make the 6VDC shunt regulator uni directional just add another rectifier (like the one there) in series with its AC input side in correct polarity of course. See any holes with this idea... probally is.

Maybe that old design is reliable as is? if not the above should be tested before blessed.


The negative side is free to increase with RPMs"""")< What do you mean by that?

The faster the magnet that's in the flywheel crosses those coils inside the higher the AC voltage. AC has a negative half and positive half that is why it is called alternating. And one possibility is that there is enough extra energy at those higher levels to blow the bulb as it revs up, if that is when it is happening.

That single diode rectifier allows one half of the AC to flow into batt only. And Batt is a stiff load and can absorb the energy and clamp the voltage near its rating when sized correctly...(still this kind of system tends to overcharge batt and shortens life). In that diagram it looks to me that the negative peaks are only reduced by the load of the bulbs on AC side which collectively may not be enough to absorb the energy and keep the voltage at head lamp at its rating as engine spins faster. I would love to measure it to be sure. If so that's why important bulbs are correct wattage and not too small.

Dang another brain fart. See if you can increase the air gap of those lighting coils from flywheel magnet... Not sure how much they could move, but some maybe. Larger air gap reduces strength of magnetic field coupling to coils.


enough... I prefer fire and explosions versus those little electrons buzzing around

If you find a wiring or bulb rating problem please tell

[jabcb]

Found a better solution for a bike with 6v, AC/DC wiring & half-wave rectifier.

Honda had similar wiring -- there is a regulator/rectifier for the Hondas.
See part 6V_reg_rec @ http://www.dratv.com/6voregre.html
Will also need the wiring pigtail, part # SUB-W-12/12/6/6

From their site:
"THIS ONE ITEM CONTROLS THE HEADLIGHT VOLTAGE (AC 6 VOLTS) TO KEEP THE HEADLIGHT FROM BURNING OUT,, AND IT GIVES THE BATTERY PLENTY OF 6 VOLT DC TO KEEP IT FULLY CHARGED AT ALL TIMES."

Honda used different wire colors.
Here is wiring diagram for Honda:

[Vintageman]

if you want a little more assurance and real easy up that tail light bulb power from 21/3 CP shown. Need to raise the 3 cp #. 6vdc bulb, so note sure of options these days. Still like opening air gap too. but not everyone can do. These ideaaswill reduce head lamp brightness low rpm. Still may blow bulb if rev happy

I know my 6 vdc bulb in my old 1982 PE 175 that I made road legal was useless at night And I had it running off a battery in addition to gen. since that generator was too week to run brake lamp (PE only had tail light)

Also easy to make your own shunt reg if you like electronics ... couple resistors, power transistor... a little packaging. Just T it in to HL feed wire and ground other side. Saw a few examples when I Google ( 6 volt shunt regulator) so don't have to show schematic.

[qparker4]

Hi,
Yes Thank you very much. I think I'll look into all of these possibilities and narrow it down. I'm going to get the bike situated then start it up and take the voltage measure at as many points as I can. Including the headlight while revving without a bulb hopefully it will give me some idea as to what is happening.

I don't want to put a shunt regulator or anything in the middle of the system though, only because I'm afraid it will over charge the battery. If I did put a regulator in any ideas where in my system I could put it?http://www.andyfox.net/wp-content/uploa ... iagram.jpg

[qparker4]

Also My bike has a battery so would I be able to put this regulator in? http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/RG06.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; From what I have learned from reading ya'lls posts the rectifier turns AC into DC does this mean I have a DC system?

[jabcb]

You have a mixture of AC & DC.
The headlight, taillight & speedo light run on AC.
The battery, horn, neutral light & brake light run on DC.

The rectifier turns AC into DC, but some of the components are powered by AC before the rectifier.

Also My bike has a battery so would I be able to put this regulator in? http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/RG06.html From what I have learned from reading ya'lls posts the rectifier turns AC into DC does this mean I have a DC system?

The Electrex RG06 is an AC voltage regulator.
You would add it to the AC lighting circuit so that its works when the headlight is in either high or low beam.

Their website says, "Prevents 'bulb faliure' when fitted to a 6V AC lighting system (no battery)."
The RG06 should stop your problem with burning out the lights.
My concern is that it might NOT allow the battery to be charged adequately.

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Honda also used a similar wiring layout with a mixture of AC & DC.

The Honda guys are using the other solution I found with good results.
See http://www.dratv.com/6voregre.html
(you need part #s 6V_reg_rec & SUB-W-12/12/6/6)

It is more complicated to wire up, but we can help you with that.